[Rick_H]

So I have a new guy at work who is just learning to Tig, I've been helping him with basics to get him started so he can do simple repairs. It amazes me how after only welding for a month or so with very little seat time, the cockiness that arrives from laying down a decent "looking bead". He was doing some practice on some brand new, clean 16g stainless and was bragging how it looked as good as anyone else he has seen in the building. I chuckled and let it go, nice to see some confidence.
Well it happened again I glanced at the weld and while the bead was pretty... The weld was crap, no penetration, he took offense to my critique as I tried to explain what I was looking at, so I put the small fillet welded piece in the vise and smacked it with a hammer, easily peeling it right off. He went on to work on his project which was a simple stand, asked me for some help and the cockiness appeared again.
Is it bad I felt good when I noticed how he was dumping way to much heat into the stainless tubing and it was moving everywhere...

Welding is a humbling skill at times even to the expierenced, but fabrication is a whole different ball game.

I noticed in my last pipe class how all the younger students felt how easy everything was...it was all virgin material. I really wish that gave you used metal that s been abused and took you off the bench, things change when your hanging upside down looking in a mirror on some 30 year old metal that needs to hold 250psi...lol

Alright rant over....

[Boomer63]

This is a parable I used to tell the apprentices when I was teaching at the apprentice school, and I tell my students now in college: The difference between a 4th year apprentice (or any kind of Noobie!) is that if I ask the Noob "Do you know this craft"? They always respond with, "sure, I got this down!" Whereas with a ten year veteran, when I ask the same question, the answer I get is a negative head shake and a comment that goes something like, "no ... I really don't". The veteran knows what he doesn't know. The Noob can't say that.

[Superiorwelding]

Rick,
I get irritated by noobs with ego problems at times as well. I think we all do to some degree. I remember my first foray into MIG welding. The guy teaching me got agrovated that I couldn't get it down. Thankfully I did not have a attitude or ego (well, at least not much of one ). The only thing you can do is try to help him and if he takes nothing in he will fall on his face. In a former life we hired kids out of the local career center and almost every one of them was this way. It got to the point to where I knew they were not going to make it so I didn't waste my time on them nor befriended them. Might not have been right but when you see so many revolve through the door it turns you sour. Today I try to be a better leader and example but there are still days that try my patience as well.
-Jonathan

[Braehill]

When you're young or inexperienced you don't know what you don't know. Time teaches most of us because of the mistakes we make and the added work they cause.

They will pay the price in time for being over confident, we all do. I think that now days you just have to be happy with anybody who shows up and works, there's not many.

Offer advise to those who'll take it and let the others fall on their ass.

Len


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[Rick_H]

Yeah was just in one of those moods where it bugged me....

[Wes917]

It's irritating sometimes. Then you get the person who really wants to learn. At some point they'll realize how little they know. Hell I've been welding/fabbing for almost 10 years and still learn something everyday

[Otto Nobedder]

GREAT topic!

We've got two new guys at work, one just out of school and the other still taking night classes. The one still in class is very open minded and willing (even eager) to learn. The other is also learning, but is hiding his willingness behind what he already "knows".

The one still in class was working near me today while I had a ton of free time, and I showed him several things about fabrication (not covered in class), and he learned about "draw", when I taught him to flash-tack stainless with TIG. He pays a lot of attention, asks great questions, and knows when it's time to ask. The other one has the "I'll figure it out myself" attitude, which I appreciate (that was me, as I had no one to ask much of the time). He's beginning to realize what he doesn't know.

I'm stunned how many tools they were both unfamiliar with. The die-grinder is the big surprise, since they both were taught on pipe. Perhaps no one ever taught them to fit up a joint, even new, much less a cut-out and repair?

These are two fine young men, and I think both will do well (though I think they're padding their resumes and looking ahead), but they remind me every day how much most welding schools make students "think" they know. My workplace clears up that false pride pretty quick with much more patience than a $15/hr fab shop.

Steve S

[jwright650]

I was at a fab shop for just a few months shy of 30 years...started as a errand runner and blue print machine operator and worked up through the engineering department and ended up being the QC manager for the largest part of my employment there. Anyway to the discussion at hand, I was usually tasked with training new welders 5/32" SMAW and 3/32" FCAW to get them up and running enough to get them working and partnered up with an experienced fitter. Many of these were hired with little to no welding experience and was hired right off the street. I wonder if the management thought that welders and fitters were a dime a dozen and anyone could be trained within a few minutes to perform these jobs...enough of that and back to the story....once the ah-ha light came on and these new welders caught on a bit, the younger ones would generally get that attitude where they now thought they should make top dollar because in their minds they can do the same work that the other guys with 30 years experience can do. I've seen that cockiness that you guys are talking about and it is annoying. The older guys that came up through this same training generally seem to need a confidence boost every now and again and stayed fairly level headed regarding their experience and pay expectations.

[Rick_H]

Steve, I'm also a little shocked at how some guys aren't familiar with what I call tools of the trade. I find most guys just don't understand proper joint prep, and where the actual strength and or stress of the joint is. I find a lot of guys don't even prep at all just weld right over the crack in the existing weld, they think by remelting the joint it will be OK.....WRONG.

When I weld food pipe, I tell guys good is not good enough, people could die if it isn't correct. I also like to say would you let your family stand on that frame?

I guess some of it comes down to pride, I know I will not always be perfect but you should strive for it.

[Superiorwelding]

I had a good one today. One of our Engineers has been out in the shop for the past 3 days practicing a 3G 1" SMAW test with 1/8" 7018. I have been to busy to even say anything to him or really look at what he is doing. Yesterday I walked by and saw his "welds" and, well he needs help. Now he is only taking a few tests for the off chance he will get to weld in the field either here or in Brazil. Now keep in mind he is as arrogant and pridefull a Engineer as ther ever was. Never wrong, thinks he knows everything and can tell you what something is and how it works even if he does not know what it is and how it works. Otherwise he is a nice guy. So at the end of the day I figured I would go over and see how he was doing and offer a hand. I heard him doing more grinding all day than welding and the floor was literally covered in grit. I walked up with my helmet on and watched him do half of his test piece. While watching I called out like I always do to anyone I am watching. "You need to slow down." "Tighten the weave up quite a bit." " Hold the sides longer." When he was done I offered to let him watch me run one and he exploded. "You can't weld on this piece, it is my final test piece!!" Tony (hillbillywelder) and I calmly told him that piece would not pass because of slag inclusions and cold lap. I grabbed a electrode and showed him what we were talking about and how to weave (which I told him not to do and switch to stringers) and he went off the handle. He said he was going to send it anyway because I specifically don't know if this piece would pass or fail. I asked him to stop and go back to practicing stringers and that he was not ready for a 3G. Most of what he said cannot be repeated but he stood there and literally yelled at the top of his lungs and us and I couldn't help but just literally laugh. He gave us excuses about why he was grinding that I never heard before. Apparently when you put down a weld that's bad you need to grind it all back out because it changed the molecular structure and caused everything to become brittle and you have to get back to virgin metal and you can't weld on top of the bad weld material or somthing like that. I asked him why he was so hateful to us, we were just offering help to him. His reply was something like "If I wanted help I would have walked over and asked for it. Anyone can do your job and learn to weld off of YouTube," MY sesponse was if that is the way he wants to treat us than we would not offer any help whatsoever in the future, he is completely on his own.....and that I can do his entire job as a engineer from Google. That one didn't go over so well, wonder why? They say you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. This horse does not even want to be lead to water.

And since we are here, he got mad when I said to hold the sides longer because he was counting to 3 for each side. It was the fastest 1,2,3 I have ever seen. Anyway, I mentioned this a while ago but guys and girls this is completely wrong!!! You cannot and do not do every weld with a 1,2,3 count. WATCH THE PUDDLE! That is what dictates when you move. 1,2,3 is a great start but I see way to many beginners tell me "Well my instructor or the YouTube video said to just count to 3." Yes as a guideline, not gospel. I know Jody has mentioned the 1,2,3, guideline in some of his videos but that is not a hard line rule.
-Jonathan

[Otto Nobedder]

Jonathan, too bad you weren't secretly videoing that... YouTube GOLD!

I'd bet good beer that poor bastard's wife is on his ass about student loan payments or house payments, or something, for that "EFF YOU, I GOT THIS" attitude to pop up like that...

Find a pizza place or bakery that serves anything called "Humble Pie", and be prepared to place an order for anonymous delivery....

Steve S

[Otto Nobedder]

When I weld food pipe, I tell guys good is not good enough, people could die if it isn't correct...

Yeah, I hear you. That's the approach I take to liquid hydrogen. That's the blessing of where I work. The words "liquid hydrogen" and all the crazy signage tend to humble people down a bit, and they take my advice that "right is better than fast" and "good is more important than pretty".

I suppose in food service, the new guy doesn't recognize the threat of germs hiding in a lack-of-fusion, but in hydrogen even the kids have seen footage of the Hindenburg (or maybe the H-bomb, and don't know the difference), so it gets their attention. People who don't pay attention to details at my work don't ever get to weld on the process, and seldom last.

Steve S

[Superiorwelding]

Steve,
He is just slightly younger than me and not married (wonder why ) Not making fun of Engineers but his whole family are engineers and they all think we are the gum on their shoes. His brother works here to but he is not that bad. Eventually he will have to come around and ask for help. I will probably say "remember, any one can do my job off of YouTube, go watch Welding Tips and Tricks"
Jonathan

[Otto Nobedder]

Arrogance is often it's own punishment.

If I were only as good as I imagine myself to be....

Steve S

[MinnesotaDave]

Steve,
He is just slightly younger than me and not married (wonder why ) Not making fun of Engineers but his whole family are engineers and they all think we are the gum on their shoes. His brother works here to but he is not that bad. Eventually he will have to come around and ask for help. I will probably say "remember, any one can do my job off of YouTube, go watch Welding Tips and Tricks"
Jonathan

I wouldn't be that nice - Jody would give him too much good information...

[Braehill]

We had an older electrical engineer who was building a panel to automatically start a redundant pump in case of failure. He had an engineer about half his age working with him, he told the younger fellow something he was doing wrong and the guy says," I have more degrees than you in electrical engineering" and Cy says, "A thermometer has lots of degrees and only knows how to do one thing. I don't care how many degrees you have, you don't know what the f$%k you're talking about. That was the last I heard him speak all day and the next day he left for another project.

Someone's academic pedigree doesn't weigh out with real life knowledge.

Len

[WTFH]

We had an older electrical engineer who was building a panel to automatically start a redundant pump in case of failure. He had an engineer about half his age working with him, he told the younger fellow something he was doing wrong and the guy says," I have more degrees than you in electrical engineering" and Cy says, "A thermometer has lots of degrees and only knows how to do one thing. I don't care how many degrees you have, you don't know what the f$%k you're talking about. That was the last I heard him speak all day and the next day he left for another project.

Someone's academic pedigree doesn't weigh out with real life knowledge.

Len

Oh I love that thermometer thing. Can't wait to use that on one of our academic teaching snobs that look down their noses at the lowly trade teachers at school. Funny!

John

[Boomer63]

I teach a one year welding course at a community college. I have over 30 years in the industry. I KNOW there is a lot of stuff I don't know! I try to stress to the students that the knowledge I give them will get them in the door. They still need a good ten years of experience to be real, real pro's. Every once in awhile, I have to do a 'smack down' on the class, or on a couple of hot shots that think they know everything. I pick the time and place, and when conditions are 'just right', I jump and and pull a move that blows their minds. I am not doing this to belittle them, just to remind them that while they might be good, they probably aren't as good as they think they are.

School is great, but the real learning starts on the job!

[Mick]

We had an older electrical engineer who was building a panel to automatically start a redundant pump in case of failure. He had an engineer about half his age working with him, he told the younger fellow something he was doing wrong and the guy says," I have more degrees than you in electrical engineering" and Cy says, "A thermometer has lots of degrees and only knows how to do one thing. I don't care how many degrees you have, you don't know what the f$%k you're talking about. That was the last I heard him speak all day and the next day he left for another project.

Someone's academic pedigree doesn't weigh out with real life knowledge.

Len

Oh I love that thermometer thing. Can't wait to use that on one of our academic teaching snobs that look down their noses at the lowly trade teachers at school. Funny!

John

I'll second that! I wish that I was the one to say that.

You know, my dad used to quote some philosopher (I'll give it a shot in English); "smartest is he, who knows what he doesn't know". Almost sounding like Socrates, but I don't know...

And just to add some Danish culture. We have something called "jante law", meaning "don't believe you are anything, or any better than everybody else". Try giving the newbies some of that And if the newbie gets offended quote all 10 original commandments

[noddybrian]

Classic - I believe the So-Crates quote your looking for is in " Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure " !!

[Wen]

This is the generation where they are "All Winners". Everyone gets a trophy. No one keeps scores because it may make someone feel bad. Just showing up is good enough and harsh words or negative input if universally avoided.

I blame it on our school systems for not getting kids ready for life, and I blame it on parents that don't step up and be parents rather than "best friends".

One thing my dad did right was give all of his kids a strong work ethic and an understanding of right and wrong.

[Braehill]

I was letting my sons know in a not so fashionable way that what they were doing was stupid. My wife said that it was not helping them build self esteem. I informed her that my job was to build men who are productive members of society, and doing things right and well will build self esteem. That ended our conversation.

Len


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[JDIGGS82]

ive been there before. I remember when I was back in vo tech school, I was 17 were practicing torch cutting bevels and I thought I was hot shit because mine came out better than the instructors sample piece, lol my mistake he came over and made me look like an ass lmao and didn't whip through it like he did for the sample piece, I then realized I let my mouth write a check my A@! couldn't cash . Just as bad are the guys who have been welding for years and think they know it all but every time that they talk it is a constant stream of misinformed b.s lol like the guy who told me not to work on vertical up because with todays machines it is useless they run hot enough you can weld anything downhill lmao I was taught ears open mouth shut you never know what you can learn from someone and the day you think you know it all you need to hang it up cause you aren't going to progress any further