[MosquitoMoto]

Okay, one for the Aussies - I'll try to keep this brief.

I recently bought my first TIG welder. It took a lot to scrape together the funds - I had to sell a motorcycle, something I never do lightly - but by the time that was done, I still had limited funds for gas.

Having been burned (pardon the pun) by gas rental in the past and warned off rental by everyone I know who welds as a hobby, I went to Power 10 Gases and purchased the only bottle of argon I could afford, a little D size. I simply shouldn't stretch to the only bigger size they do, namely the E.

Needless to say after practising my arse off and just starting to get my head around aluminium welding, I'm out of gas. I underestimated just how fast you use argon when practising. Problem is if I'm going to improve my skills I'm going to need to keep practising as much as I can...why the hell is argon so expensive in this country?

Just looking for tips or advice on a solution for this. I love my TIG and I want to get good at aluminium, but honestly if I practised as much as I want to, I'd burn a D size bottle every fortnight. My wife is a wonderful, patient woman...but not that patient!

Any tips from the hobbyists out there? How do you do it? I love the idea of owning my bottles and not paying rent, but at the very least I need a bigger bottle. How are you guys who weld all the time managing your argon habit? Any advice at all that might help keep me welding as often as possible would be greatly appreciated.


Kym

[Metal_pig2001]

Hi Kym
Argon here in New Zealand is all that cheap either. One problem that you would have found with a larger bottle is when you come to get it filled again it would hurt your pocket even more. I also have a D size that I rent from BOC. I probably should have gone the bottle purchase option but it was not available when I first started.

Can I suggest doing practice on things that are still useful but non-critical projects. Things like parts bins, racks for the bins etc. The gas is not 'wasted' but you may get to reminded of your beginning welds for years to come.

I look forward to hearing other ideas for useful practice projects to help with this issue since shielding gas is a big cost for hobbyist welders

Regards
Ralph

[MosquitoMoto]

Hi Kym
Argon here in New Zealand is all that cheap either. One problem that you would have found with a larger bottle is when you come to get it filled again it would hurt your pocket even more. I also have a D size that I rent from BOC. I probably should have gone the bottle purchase option but it was not available when I first started.

Can I suggest doing practice on things that are still useful but non-critical projects. Things like parts bins, racks for the bins etc. The gas is not 'wasted' but you may get to reminded of your beginning welds for years to come.

I look forward to hearing other ideas for useful practice projects to help with this issue since shielding gas is a big cost for hobbyist welders

Regards
Ralph

Thanks Ralph. Interesting what you say about 'useful practise'...I had just started on some very modest practical stuff (brackets) when I ran out of gas. This is my first ever bottle of gas and first ever shot at TIG welding, so I really did just have to do some practise to get a hang of things, but was always aware that I had to be doing useful stuff asap!

It always makes me smile to hear people from countries where gas is cheap giving the (good) advice "just get out there and lay down some practise beads!" Yes, I need to do this, but those practise beads here in Australia are very expensive. That's why I watched many hours of Jody's videos and even too notes before I ever lit up.

Thanks for you thoughts. I look forward to seeing what advice others might have. At this stage I think I will save up my (ulp...) $500+ for an E size bottle and eventually run two bottles so that I never run out. Doesn't take the sting out of $110 for a D size refill though, does it?


Kym

[Oscar]

I hope you're using an appropriately sized gas lens and proper gas flow with short stick out. If not......

[GreinTime]

I hope you're using an appropriately sized gas lens and proper gas flow with short stick out. If not......

How would he know what that is Oscar? (no offense Mosquito)

You can weld aluminum with a #5 gas lens at 5-7 lpm and do just fine. Steel, gas lens is my personal choice, but again, as long as you aren't getting nasty colors in your welds, and your tungsten is staying silver, you can back it off a little to conserve gas. My dad (Braehill) uses way less argon than most, and welds as much as anyone, simply because he uses the minimal amount of gas possible to still maintain weld integrity.

Gas lens are a relatively recent invention in the grand scheme of TIG welding. They definitely offer some benefit over a standard collet body, but people laid way better beads than any of us for years before they came around.

[MosquitoMoto]

I hope you're using an appropriately sized gas lens and proper gas flow with short stick out. If not......

How would he know what that is Oscar? (no offense Mosquito)

You can weld aluminum with a #5 gas lens at 5-7 lpm and do just fine. Steel, gas lens is my personal choice, but again, as long as you aren't getting nasty colors in your welds, and your tungsten is staying silver, you can back it off a little to conserve gas. My dad (Braehill) uses way less argon than most, and welds as much as anyone, simply because he uses the minimal amount of gas possible to still maintain weld integrity.

Gas lens are a relatively recent invention in the grand scheme of TIG welding. They definitely offer some benefit over a standard collet body, but people laid way better beads than any of us for years before they came around.

Thanks guys. Trust me, the moment I heard that one of the benefits of a gas lens was a potential argon saving, I picked one up. To put the situation into perspective, I have been welding with the lpm backed off until the weld starts to suffer, and then just adding a touch. I've kept my tungsten stick out tight. I'm using a number 5 cup more out of luck than good judgement. Hell, I switch my gas off at the bottle between welds! That's how careful I'm being.

I'm doing all I can to save argon, but would very much like a tip on an affordable source. While I am learning, regardless of how careful I am, I am going to be practising more and using gas. Just hate the way argon is so expensive here that it actually makes me consider practising less.

Kym

[ex framie]

Kym,
I'm having the same issue.
I bought 2 E sized bottles off speedie gas as the monthly rental on 2 bottles ( got a mig as well) was killing me for the amount of welding I was doing. Tig sucks up roughly twice the gas mig does and I'm on my second bottle of argon and its only 1/3 full atm.
E sized swap is roughly $176 so roughly the same as liquid air or boc and yes its effecting my practice which is why I suck at it everytime I go and do some for the first hour or so.
Short of outright theft or hijacking a gas truck thats as cheap as I've found.
Perhaps as more competition comes into the market things "might" improve.

Pete

[MosquitoMoto]

Kym,
I'm having the same issue.
I bought 2 E sized bottles off speedie gas as the monthly rental on 2 bottles ( got a mig as well) was killing me for the amount of welding I was doing. Tig sucks up roughly twice the gas mig does and I'm on my second bottle of argon and its only 1/3 full atm.
E sized swap is roughly $176 so roughly the same as liquid air or boc and yes its effecting my practice which is why I suck at it everytime I go and do some for the first hour or so.
Short of outright theft or hijacking a gas truck thats as cheap as I've found.
Perhaps as more competition comes into the market things "might" improve.

Pete

Hey Pete.

I feel your pain! Doing all I can to save gas but it screws up my progress. Not really sure what the way forward is. Doesn't help that any time you speak to someone in industry they say "You privateers pay HOW MUCH for argon!?"

At this stage the closest I can see to a solution is...um...work even more, earn more cash, buy more gas?

Very interested to hear what anyone else might have to say. It doesn't sit well with me that something as intrinsically useful as welding should be such an expensive hobby. I'm fine laying out good cash for a welding machine, but that a basic consumable is being sold at such ripoff prices is just plain wrong. There has to be a better way.

Kym

[Arno]

Doesn't help that any time you speak to someone in industry they say "You privateers pay HOW MUCH for argon!?"

This is an interesting tidbit though as it means that the base price for argon in australia is not that high but private individuals have to pay much more than commercial entities? At least that makes it a little easier as it means it's not the base gas price that's already a lot highter.

I don't know how it works in australia but would it be an option to start an 'on-paper' (one-man) company to get the paperwork and gain access to the cheaper 'company' rates? Does the lower rate extend to (registered) clubs, foundations or other organisations? If so.. Would looking around for other hobbyists and starting a 'fabricators club' for this purpose work?

Come to think of it.. You could look around for existing organisations in this area of work who have perhaps secured deals or agreements for their members on getting consumables for industry prices.

Or get to know (commercial) fabricators in your area and perhaps you can secure a supply of gas through them?

Bye, Arno.

[MosquitoMoto]

Thanks Arno.

I have one friend who works in industry; that's how I know that industry pays far less than privateers. To an extent of course you would expect industry to pay less because they buy in bulk compared to hobbyists, but my understanding (I have not seen paper work to back this up) is that even small businesses with modest use pay far less.

I am currently enquiring via my friend in the industry to see whether there are any legitimate and legal ways I can exploit a loophole such as you mentioned...yes, I've been trying to think of all the angles!

I don't want to do anything that might cause trouble or create an insurance problem; I'm certainly not interested in anything illegal. But if I can find a way to use my business (I have my own registered business that has nothing to do with welding) to buy gas more cheaply, I'll definitely do it.


Kym

[kiwi2wheels]

@ MosquitoMoto,

You may be doing this already, it's a good practice to leak check all argon connections with a solution of dish wash detergent from a spray bottle.

Especially valves on rental bottles.

[Harry72]

I'd love to buy a bottle but unless you live in a larger city the transport cost's outweigh the rental.
BOC last slugged me 192 for rental and 198 changeover (E size), I've heard "BYOB" E size is about 160ish changeover so its definitely cheaper the freight is the killer, they want 100 per bottle(there and back 200km each way)... thats 260 each at my current rate of usage 5 bottles per year( and possibly then some)
BYOB = 1300(plus in the 1st year the bottle purchase cost)
BOC = 1182
And the other problem is BYOB you have no bottle when exchanging because the empty must be returned before they'll send out the full one...

[MosquitoMoto]

I'd love to buy a bottle but unless you live in a larger city the transport cost's outweigh the rental.
BOC last slugged me 192 for rental and 198 changeover (E size), I've heard "BYOB" E size is about 160ish changeover so its definitely cheaper the freight is the killer, they want 100 per bottle(there and back 200km each way)... thats 260 each at my current rate of usage 5 bottles per year( and possibly then some)
BYOB = 1300(plus in the 1st year the bottle purchase cost)
BOC = 1182
And the other problem is BYOB you have no bottle when exchanging because the empty must be returned before they'll send out the full one...

Harry...good grief, I feel for you. You're worse off than I am! I live in a capital city, so pick up and drop off is easy. Kiwi...yes, I've done the spray bottle test.nno leaks, all good.


Kym

[hey_allen]

Hearing those prices almost makes you curious as to the price to build your own gas extraction and compression facility!

I sincerely doubt that it'd scale down far enough to be cost effective, but those prices... Ouch.

[MosquitoMoto]

Hearing those prices almost makes you curious as to the price to build your own gas extraction and compression facility!

I sincerely doubt that it'd scale down far enough to be cost effective, but those prices... Ouch.

Yep. Just checked the invoice. $345 to buy my tiny D size bottle, $119 for a refill. If I practised as much as I wanted to, my gas costs would be running $119 per fortnight.


Kym

[Metal_pig2001]

Hi Kym
the one BYOB 'supplier' that I am aware in New Zealand charges NZ$599 for a D size argon cylinder purchase and then NZ$139 for a fill. http://eziswapgas.co.nz/welding-gas-and ... cylinders/

These are US$396 and US$91 respectively

Your prices Kym equate to AUS$345 = US$255

Regards

Ralph

[MosquitoMoto]

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

And that no-one has come forward with anything like a solution thus far prompts me to believe what I've suspected all along...there isn't one!



Kym

[hey_allen]

Why are the Argon prices so much higher down under?

I was wincing at argon costs when I was hearing ~$60 /80cf bottle, but found that filling a 250cf only ran me ~$75. Admittedly, that has NO freight, since I'm bringing the bottle directly to the gas supplier, but still...

I'm not a business user either, so I suspect that the high volume users are getting better prices yet.

It's not that Argon is any rarer in the southern hemisphere than the northern, so what justification are the suppliers offering?

[Metal_pig2001]

Here is an interesting article on gas separation: http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/production/1K.pdf
Worth a read.

Regards

Ralph

[Coldman]

That's the thing that really sucks in oz - we really get ripped off for everything we buy we pay double what everyone else pays in the world. I can buy Indonesian cane furniture in the USA ship it to oz pay the freight and taxes and still save half buying identical shite down the road. The gas suppliers are the worst rip off merchants of the lot along with oil companies power retailers and government water rates.

[Metal_pig2001]

Hi Kym

I have just logged into my BOC Online Store account and figured out that per volume of gas that Argon and Argoshield are 80% and 76% respectively cheaper per cubic metre in a F size cylinder than a D size cylinder. I couldn't find the rental amounts to take into account as well.
It may be worth you doing the same exercise.
There is however still the sting in the tail when you come to pay for a fresh cylinder at ~NZ$270!!

I guess you could always put money into a piggy bank http://welding-tv.com/2014/12/16/piggy- ... g-project/ each time you use your welder.

Ralph

[ex framie]

The problem is there is NO competition.
B.O.C., Core gas and Liquide Air are ALL owned by liquide Air therefore no competion.
There are minor differences in pricing, operative word there is minor.
SFA in other words.

[TRACKRANGER]

All good points.

And makes one wonder why somebody hasn't come on board with a decent competition company.

Let the user purchase a bottle and refill it, or rent at a sensible and reasonable rate, and undercut the others ridiculous pricing by a "sensible" margin.

BOC et. al. would close their doors within a week.

I've been paying rental on a number of cylinders for 40+ years. This year's rental bill is $840. In today's terms it's cost me more than $33,000 over that period - and that's just to rent empty bottles.

I can't remember that last time I changed the Oxy/Acetylene over, 'cause the "blue wrench" doesn't get a lot of use, but I feel the pain of the price gouging in the cylinder rental every time that bill arrives.

My 2 cents...

Trev

[MosquitoMoto]

Hi Kym

I have just logged into my BOC Online Store account and figured out that per volume of gas that Argon and Argoshield are 80% and 76% respectively cheaper per cubic metre in a F size cylinder than a D size cylinder. I couldn't find the rental amounts to take into account as well.
It may be worth you doing the same exercise.
There is however still the sting in the tail when you come to pay for a fresh cylinder at ~NZ$270!!

I guess you could always put money into a piggy bank http://welding-tv.com/2014/12/16/piggy- ... g-project/ each time you use your welder.

Ralph

Hey Ralph.

Yeah, I've done the maths on that, too. Unfortunately on the day I went to get my first bottle of gas I simply didn't have the cash for bigger than D size...after selling my KTM and saving every dollar to buy the welder itself, I literally had just enough cash left to grab the D. Oh, and Power 10 gases don't do an argon bottle bigger than E anyhow.

I'm happy I've purchased a bottle, because down the track when I have my skills sorted I won't be paying rent for those times I'm not welding. What's killing me is that right now, when I need to be practising as often as possible, it's the cost of gas, and ONLY the cost of gas, that's preventing me laying down those beads and becoming a good welder.

EDIT -, Trev, $800+ per year...ouch...

Gas companies suck.

Kym

[Braehill]

I can't comment on some of the aspects of this thread, but why don't you guys stop into your local fab shop (higher volume users) with a box of pastries and see if you can get in on there rental exchange, offering them a profit on there costs. If they're paying way less than you, maybe you can split the difference.

We've had more than one conversation here on gas surge and it's elimination. I work for one of the major players in the gas industry and I still find ways to save gas when it's on my dime. There a re quite a few things that you can do to your system to save gas.

It was mentioned that Mig uses less gas than Tig. Does it? You'll get more weld per cubic feet of gas used because the process is faster, but the cubic feet per hour is usually higher for Mig. Gas surge on a Mig machine can count for a lot of gas wasted and there are companies that make surge reducer for them.

Len