[VincenzioVonHook]

Hi all, just over at a mates place and he picked up a rossi 185A Mig/stick the other day for $399 Australian. From what I can tell its one of those rebranded chinese units everyone is reselling. For the price it is bloody magnificent to use, compared to my CIG weldskill 150 (cost me $399 on discount). It has a digital readout, apparent 60-185A, and somehow runs off a 10A plug as well as having a decent all metal drive unit???

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-ROSSI-We ... SwbdpWYli2

I had the pleasure of owning a unimig mini 180 for a while until it got stolen, and it was a pearler for the price ($485). Im looking to upgrade as the GIG only welds 4mm with full peno butt, and 6mm with a half thickness v groove. The rossi claims to be able to weld 14mm steel at 185A, which is sending off alarm signals (there is no way a, in reality, 170A hobby welder with a 10a plug can weld 14mm in a single pass). It also uses a 10A socket, which is sending off more alarm bells. Most welders I can find that are over 135A have 15A 240v supply.

I used the rossi 185e this morning and it ties in well to 8mm steel running a t joint with Co2. Etched it and it is penetrating down into the root well, and ties into the sides well. It has a euro connector, is digital, has full metal wire feed units, and is easily upgraded to better wire feed bodies, and has stick capacity. Claims 15% duty at 185A (max) so id say it is realistically a 160/170ish Amp machine, and 60% duty at 95A. Not the best but seems to hold true mucking around this morning.

Do you guys think this machine is worth the gamble? Edisons (the distributor) is Australian, easy to speak to over the phone, and claims they keep thousands of spare parts in stock, and offer a 1 year warranty, or an extended 2 year warranty for an extra $50. It will mainly be used to build custom camping trailers at home, and the odd repair job. Most of the work I do is either 1.6 or 2mm sheet, or 3/4/5mm Box section/plate. The heaviest work it will be doing is welding up spring hangers and mounts for dual axle car trailer suspension (hangers are all 8mm plate welded to channel (75x40). If i need to do any heavy plate work (which is rare as all hell) I will pull out the 5/32 6011 and the 250A buzzbox i stole from the farm after i butchered it and its internals with fans and heatsinks......im a strange one.

The other option is to buy the unimig 180 again. Its around $100 more these days, but doesn't seem to have the power of the rossi from what i have experienced. But it does have spool gun mounts. The Rossi is also 13kg compared to 33kg for the unimig. My main point of worry is the 10A lead. Its rated input is only 6.5kva which is pretty small. My 130A stick has a 10A lead and 7kva requirement. Everything else i see here for the $400 is rubbish. Ozito/Cig chinese units, normally 120/135A with plastic feed bodies and direct mount torches, so the Unimig or Rossi it is.

[VincenzioVonHook]

Allright. Something is definitely off with their stated specs. They also have a 220Amp MIG/TIG/Stick welder that apparently has a 30% duty cycle at 220A, only weighs 14kg, has infinite voltage/amperage control, AND TO TOP IT OFF IT STILL RUNS ON A 10A 240V STANDARD SOCKET yet only costs $399! How is this possible. There is absolutely no real info on these machines, they come in many brands (campmark, nevada, mishto, lumik).

Does anyone have any experience with any of these machines? How is it that most reputable companies choose 15A for anything over 140 in general, and these somehow don't trip breakers? The stated input is only 7.5kva as well for a 220A. My only guess is that they are made from playdough?

The rossi i used this morning at my mates seemed to be of pretty good build quality and welded like a champ. Am I chump change for even asking this. I feel dirty even considering buying one of those 220A mmig/stick/tig unbits just to see if i can kill it. I have no idea how inverters work, but they seem to be able to provide more power for the given input, can someone fill me in?

[MosquitoMoto]

If Edison's are decent on the phone they should be able to recommend some happy customers you could speak to who are working with these machines.

Yes, I know they could set up something dodgey but I think you are probably smart enough to see through that.

The guy I deal with said he'd be happy to have me call some of the people who own his machines. I never did, because forum talk was overwelmingly positive for his machines and his service. What is the Australian banter online saying about Rossi?


Kym

[Coldman]

The old domestic 10a circuits withe fuse wire would fuse with instantaneous loads greater than 10a but would hold 15a if loaded incrementally. Most modern domestic circuit breakers are 15a because they they trip at 15a no matter how they sre loaded. Wiring in both systems is at least 1.5mm□ which is rated at 15a. The only difference between a 10 and 15a plug is the size of the earth pin. The active and neutral pins are identical. Rossi is therefore taking advantage of this knowledge and supplying 10a plugs. Nobody's going to notice the difference.

[VincenzioVonHook]

The old domestic 10a circuits withe fuse wire would fuse with instantaneous loads greater than 10a but would hold 15a if loaded incrementally. Most modern domestic circuit breakers are 15a because they they trip at 15a no matter how they sre loaded. Wiring in both systems is at least 1.5mm□ which is rated at 15a. The only difference between a 10 and 15a plug is the size of the earth pin. The active and neutral pins are identical. Rossi is therefore taking advantage of this knowledge and supplying 10a plugs. Nobody's going to notice the difference.

I figured so. I had heard 10A sockets are hooked up to 15 amp breakers but wasn't sure if this was so. I have ran a couple of 15A welders off a conversion lead and never had any problems myself, but they were only 140A units. Is there any reason some manufacturers quote a higher duty cycle with a 15A vs 10A lead on the same power source? That has me lost.

[Coldman]

Duty cycle has nothing to do with input power and everything to do with the quality of the power source (welding machine ).

[VincenzioVonHook]

Duty cycle has nothing to do with input power and everything to do with the quality of the power source (welding machine ).

In other words just inconsistencies with specs on cheap products i suppose. There was a few going around that you had to put your own socket on, and they were quoting 15%@180A with a 10A lead, or 25% with a 15A lead. In my small mind i figured it wouldn't make a difference, but it wouldn;t hurt to ask just in case I am seriously stunted in electrical knowledge.

[Coldman]

That's interesting that they would quote different duty cycles for the same macine based on the input power lead. Like anyone would change out the factory lead

[VincenzioVonHook]

ive seen a few chinese units that come with a cable and bare wires on the end so you can fit up a 10, 15 or 20A plug on them i assume.......a lot of cheap 250 amp buzz boxes come with them on ebay from what i have seen.

Just something i was pondering on before though, if i am not massively wrong (correct me if a am because i literally know nothing about circuits), my kitchen has a twin 10A outlet which I assume runs off one 15A breaker right......my toaster is a 4 slice 2000W and my kettle is 2200w......that should be like 17 or more Amps there.....they run at the same time every morning. Sometimes I have the microwave, kettle and toaster all running through the two inputs with a double adapter. I know most 150A or so welders normally only pull something like 13A at the socket at full voltage so it shouldn't be that big of a deal to run a 15A machine on a single 10A socket anyway if the poor twin socket upstairs can take the heat when i get the munchies hit the microwave and toaster up at the same time.

Keep in mind the only time i have figured out power draw in amps was when converting video card power draw in watts to amps on the 12v rail, i assume it is the same. Ramble over

[Poland308]

I depends on if your talking watts of the heating elements or watt usage. There 2 different things. Toaster as an example probably has an adjustable lever, you know the one push it one way you get warm bread push it the other you get a hockey puck. Same wattage of the element but different wattage use rates therefore different amp rates for the same piece of equipment.
Most dual input voltage welders have diferent duty cycles on them depending on input voltage. Higher input voltage means your electronics don't have to work as hard and create less internal heat this will increase the duty cycle and allow the welder to run longer before it trips out.

[VincenzioVonHook]

I depends on if your talking watts of the heating elements or watt usage. There 2 different things. Toaster as an example probably has an adjustable lever, you know the one push it one way you get warm bread push it the other you get a hockey puck. Same wattage of the element but different wattage use rates therefore different amp rates for the same piece of equipment.
Most dual input voltage welders have diferent duty cycles on them depending on input voltage. Higher input voltage means your electronics don't have to work as hard and create less internal heat this will increase the duty cycle and allow the welder to run longer before it trips out.

\As I said...I am a hell bent grommet when it comes to elctrical.......heres whats is confusing the holl out of me, if not swaying me away from these units
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-CAMPMARK ... SwPcVVr5EN

These campmark machines use the same power source as the mishto/rossi welders. It has a 15A plug, and it quotes 60% duty cycle at 180A and 100% duty cycle at 128A. That sounds HIGHLY unrealistic to me. Most $1000 inverters here dont have that type of duty cycle. And if these units all use the same power source, how come the many with a 15A plug are claiming 60% duty at full load, and the ones with a 10A plug are claiming 10 or 15% at the same load?

Im pretty sure its just down to inflated specs though. Campmark also has 250A stick inverters for $200 that claim to have a near on 100% duty cycle at 160A, and 60% at 220A......i can't say for sure they are speaking out of their ass, and edison's gladly gave me a list of people who were happy to shout out, so i might give them the benefit of the doubt. It's just sad when big brands are selling 135A MIG's with direct mount torches, plastic drive motor housings and 2 or 4 stage voltage selectors for nearly twice the price of these units, and from actual inspection and use at a mates, the build quality seems to be far greater on the cheaper units.......

A bloody 90Amp AC MIG (yes, an AC gasless mig...yuk) with only 2 voltage settings and a 10% duty cycle at 85A from CIGweld or Weldcorp are around $300ish or more from bunnings. If you compare the campmark 185n (euro torch, stick capacity, digital readout, way lighter, way higher build quality, better warranty, twice the power, Direct Current/switchable polarity, way higher duty cycle....the list goes on forever) these low end units from the bigger names are a complete mockery to the hobby welder. They assume people on a low budget deserve to be taken for a ride obviously. These cheap units from CIG, Weldcorp, Unimig and so on are all made in china as well.

[Coldman]

These smaller units only cost $20-$50 dollars to make in the China factory. the final retail price bears no relationship to cost of manufacture but where the brander or retailer wishes to place themselves in the market.
When the Great Wall utes (pick-ups) hit the Ozzie market they were intended to sell for around $8000 but the govt stepped in to prevent the auto industry from going broke overnight and made them sell for $25-$30,000. So if Great Wall can manufacture, ship and market 4wd twin cab dual turbo/supercharger diesel utes for 8K the factory cost must be 1K or less.
So when it comes to comparing these smaller welding machines you have to ignore price as a gauge to quality. The best way is to google reviews on a particular model and see what's stuck to its blanket. If there are no reviews, don't touch it unless you want to be part of their field r&d project.
The Rossi brand has been around on ebay for a long time and look ok on paper but I've never actually met anyone that has owned or used one. Many of these obscure and no-name brands are around for a short while by a trader of all sorts that has brought in a couple of containers loads on a one off good deal, when the containers are empty, the brand disappears and so does the backup. Let the buyer beware. (Sorry I don't know latin.)

[MosquitoMoto]

'Caveat Emptor', I think.

After many frustrating hours working on Ducatis, I have 'Dux Vitae Ratio' inscribed on my tool chest - loosely translated, 'Logic is the guide to Life'.



Kym

[ex framie]

Kym,
Get a Moto Guzzi, no frustration there.
And you dont need a degree in physic candle holding and chanting to do the valves

[MosquitoMoto]

Kym,
Get a Moto Guzzi, no frustration there.
And you dont need a degree in physic candle holding and chanting to do the valves

No frustration...no power or handling, either!

I'm lucky, I am doing more and more track testing and writing of bike reviews these days and I really am spoiled for choice in what I ride.

As for my own bikes...now the focus is on my next track/race bike (I think maybe a Triumph 675...) and buying a road bike that is dog slow so that I don't cop a speeding fine every second weekend on our uniquely speed camera infested South Australian roads.


Kym

[OzFlo]

Vincenzio,

Edisons used to trade as AGR Machinery on ebay. Let the buyer beware..

[kiwi2wheels]

Kym,
Get a Moto Guzzi, no frustration there.
And you dont need a degree in physic candle holding and chanting to do the valves

No frustration...no power or handling, either!

I'm lucky, I am doing more and more track testing and writing of bike reviews these days and I really am spoiled for choice in what I ride.

As for my own bikes...now the focus is on my next track/race bike (I think maybe a Triumph 675...) and buying a road bike that is dog slow so that I don't cop a speeding fine every second weekend on our uniquely speed camera infested South Australian roads.


Kym

This one wouldn't rock your boat ?

http://www.motorsportscenter.com/printer_618.shtml

[MosquitoMoto]

Kiwi -

It comes close...but have you seen the service intervals on those? Don't quote me on this, but I seem to recall new pistons and rings at 1,000 kays or something? Basically a race bike, after all.

And a race prepped 675 would still go up the inside of it in turns...

(Sorry...thread jack!)

See you at the cemetery races some time!



Kym

[VincenzioVonHook]

Vincenzio,

Edisons used to trade as AGR Machinery on ebay. Let the buyer beware..

That has got to be the most terrifying thing i have heard this week....